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Beyond The Wall – Season 2 – Episode 8

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Episode 8 was recorded Live at Balticon 46. It’s shorter than our usual fare, but we hope you enjoy it! 

Episode 8 – The Prince of Winterfell

P.G. moderates this week’s panel discussion with Chooch, Vivid Muse, Nuchtchas, and Christiana… along with an audience of around 50 wonderful folks!

P.G. Holyfield (author of Murder at Avedon Hill and SFM Founder
Chooch (Into the Blender Podcast Co-Host, and bassist of Ditched By Kate)
Vivid Muse (Into the Blender Podcast Co-Host), Girls’ Rules Podcast Host)
Christiana Ellis (too many podcasts to list here 😉 but you can check out all things Christiana at her site).
Nuchtchas (Host of Nutty Bites Podcast)

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10 replies on “Beyond The Wall – Season 2 – Episode 8”

And the award for this year’s “Dumbest Stark” goes to…… CATELYN!!
Last year her husband beat her to the prize, but this year she will not be denied!
Yes indeed, once again Catelyn has displayed her amazing inability to THINK THINGS THROUGH!!
She’s followed up last year’s attempt: “How to start a war in 3 easy steps” with this year’s offering “How to lose a war in 1 move while making your son look like a right tit”!!

Seriously though, what is she hoping will happen? That Brienne will deliver Jamie to Kingslanding and the Lannisters will just release Sansa and “Arya”???!!! Does she honestly think that the Lannisters (now holding all the cards) would do the “honourable” thing??

And yeah, I get the whole “She’s a mother, and a mother will left a truck to save her baby thing”, but that’s not a licence to be stupid! How can she possibly think this will get her kids back. What’s more likely to happen is, once in Kinglanding, they kill Brienne, hold on to Sansa and demand that Robb disarms and comes to court to “swear fealty” ie: ALL HER KIDS DIE!! Oh and that’s if the North Men don’t kill Robb themselves first (NO SPOILER, I’ve not read beyond Book 1).

Also I disagree about the moral question with regards Brieanne, yes she serves Catelyn, but she models herself as a Knight, with a knight’s code of honour and virtue. There is no honour or virtue in helping a dishonourable, incestuous, child maiming, King / Kin slayer scumbag to evade justice! Ironically when I was watching the scene with Brienne I was reminded of Jamie’s speech about oaths “they make you swear so many things that it becomes confusing”. In this case Brienne swore to be honourable and to serve Catelyn, and already there is a conflict in oaths. (Sorry for the mini rant, long commute home tonight).

Really liked the Podcast and am looking forward to the next one.
I don't think that Catelyn action in this episode was really stupid.
It was indicated before that, if she wouldn't have acted, Jaime would have gotten slayed by the angered Bannermen / fighters. There was a small brawl about it in the camp and Brienne also stated that Jaime was at very bad odds of staying alive in the camp.
I think if Jaime would have been killed it might have very likely resulted in a revenge act on Sansa, the Starks wouldn't have gotten anything from their hostages and maybe it could have even gotten so far to provoke Tywin to an direct attack. John wouldn't even have gotten a higher reputation, as I guess it's worse if your men betray you (by killing your hostage) as if your mother does.

For Brienne, as far she is regarded, I think, Jaime is just a valuable hostage she has to guide to kings landing. For which exact purpose we don't know yet. I don't think it matters to her whether Jaime is a good person or not she might also not be involved or interested in the politics of house Stark and Lannister. So I don't really see where a conflict should arise for her. She got orders, she performs them.
Also I don't think it''s really helping Jaime evading justice, but performing a normal hostage-treatment (beeing chained and push all the long way down to Kings Landing). Don't think Jaime was held hostage so they could give him a honorable and fair trail/sentence.

I do agree that Jaime was in real danger. The problem I had was: a) if she was trying to protect him as a war asset, she should have had Brienne take Jaime away somewhere relatively close and bring him back once Robb returned. It may have been 'a' motivation, but her core purpose was to try to save her children, which while noble, is exactly what Robb states it was. A big pile of dog poo… wait, he didn't say that, did he?

b) Having Brienne take him to King's Landing, or at least somewhere near King's Landing and tie him up, to go negotiate for the kids' release? How successful would that ever be?

Of course I'm talking about my "problem" with it… I don't really have a problem with it, it's a great plot device. I'm just saying I'm completely on Robb's side re: his reaction.

As for Brienne, I just think she should have some sort of "moral" argument with herself. She's a soldier first, and even though she is sworn to Catelyn, I feel that she would understand that what she was doing would be considered "dishonorable" to her understanding of warfare and Jaime's position as an asset for the Starks. Not that she wouldn't do it… I'm not so stuck on this one, I just wanted to ask everyone what they thought about it, as a conversation starter. 🙂

I just noticed that currently I only got a very faint idea where Robs Army is currently camping though I haven't considered hiding nearby as an option. The men were eager to find them, and if they hid somewhere close, I figured they would kill Jaime and Brienne.
Therefore, after the cliffhanger in episode 7, I thought that Catelyn would either kill Jaime or maybe cripple him. Specially after all the harsh replies he gave, truth spoken or not. But I also didn't notice her kids as the major motivation and really thought it is the tactical / war-asset part. (I really wanted to slap both Starks for not mentioning it when confronting each other in the tent and assumed that they may have not addressed it as the guards could get a wrong impression)

Which might be all due to the fact that I haven't read the books and just seen the show up to the second season final. ( I ordered the books right afterwards to calm down the Game of Thrones 'cold turkey' ^^; )

I assumed that Catelyn, or at least Brienne, did developed some kind of plan how to move Jaime to Kings Landing and not less important how to cash him effectively in. Hopefully one which includes Briennes survival, as she somehow rapidly developed to be my favorite character – leaving Tyron and Osha behind.
Something I did consider a bit strange is that Briennes does her Oath to Catelyn, and like maybe a week or some month, she is already on the road again with someone else. I did expect that if you engage someone with a vow and all, you would hold the one closer. So I considered it a bit rude of Catelyn to send Brienne off with the Kingsslayer on a kind of suicide mission.

About Briennes dilemma regarding a potential moral conflict.
Hm, she doesn't seem to like Jaime and condemns him for hurting virtually everyone (weak ones, innocent ones and those he swore to protect). Still it doesn't seem to influence her determination to fulfill her task.
Regarding warfare she proven, at least to the viewer, to be rather the physical type but the scheming one but I assume that the understands the relevance of hostages, war-assets and the importance of moving them.She at least clearly reject Jaimes request for an open and 'fair' duel and refers the idea to something only an idiot would agree too. I think if her moral was the same as Ned she might have given it a chance.

Plus some aspect could be who in Westeros would see it as "dishonorable" for a Vassal to transport a war-asset on request of his Lord/Lady just because the war-asset is a certified bad person. Briennes loyalty is with Catelyn and not with Rob.

Maybe they'll put / add some conversations or hints of the argument in the show. Am just not sure how, as Brienne didn't struck me as the most talkative type. Specially in this episode I got the impression that it did took quite some efforts for Jaime to get Brienne to talk at all. (He asks like twice before she gives him her full name)

I think we all agree that this is a weak Catelyn decision, but I am on her side in regards to Jaime's being in danger of dying, and that would doom the girls (in her mind.) I also don't think that Brienne trying to hide Jaime would work all that well.

Search Party: You, small folk, we're looking for a man being escorted by a freakishly big woman in armor.

Smallfolk: A *blond* freakishly big woman in armor?

Search Party: Aye.

Smallfolk: Oh, then that would be the one hiding that good looking gent in Duncan's Grove down the road. My boy's best friend's pa's apprentice saw this golden haired hag pulling along this nobleman in rags (he knew he was noble by his teeth, see), and since that's a strange thing, he told his master, who told his son, who told my son, who told me, and now I've told you.

As a small addition, bout Jaimes comment about that there are just three man in the kingdom who can beat him, my first thought was that Brienne is no man. (Like a small LotR reference.

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